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Durin Mephit
Great Tree Officer
Joined: 29 Jan 2004
Posts: 3119
Location: Tigard, OR
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BladeLakem
Great Tree Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 514
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 Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I think that UO is lot more suspectible to flaming than a lot of the other forums, due to the amount of traffic it gets.
Only tangentally related, I think that the lines between In Character and Out Of Character have become really blurred in Uru.
We play avatars that don't necessarily have to correspond to ourselves, participate in an imaginary world with fictional characters being played by people at Cyan, and then we are generally expected that our avatar represents who we really are, as opposed to being part of a story.
We walk a thin line between story and reality here. I think we'll see more problems with that when Live launches. We'll get more users who are used to playing a character (and characters), and they'll run straight into a community of people who are used to knowing about each others lives, meeting up face-to-face, and generally assuming 'U are U' and reacting badly to people who don't follow that.
Now, Garrett's case is a case of where that line was blurred too much. But I think, as a community, we have to be ready for more problems from that gray area and figure out how to handle the problems responsibly. |
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Professor Askew
Great Tree Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2003
Posts: 2532
Location: Bloomfield, CT
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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Good poast, Blade. I think as time passes and the population grows our group Hoods will become more and more important. I also think you'll see more Private Hoods as refuges.
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Professor Daniel Askew - Securing our reality from the machinations of the Station Masters. |
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Rils
Great Tree Member
Joined: 28 Dec 2005
Posts: 815
Location: Screw Ballard, I live in Edmonds now
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| ghaelen wrote: | | However, I don't agree that using a tragedy is a good way to end a character's role unless it is clear that that character is a part of the Cyan story and not a part of the community. Too many people have lost loved ones in Real Live, and my concern is for them and the idea that their pain has been mocked, in a way. More than one person may now need some emotional counseling. Was it necessary to create that kind of situation. |
ooo, please don't think I am condoning what Garrett did! I did not mean that at all. I was merely pointing out that, though it was misdirected, I can appreciate his creativity in playing the role to the end.
I don't believe he intentionally meant to mock the pain of those who have lost loved ones to similar circumstances. I think it was just a bad idea that then got further out of hand. Maybe he didn't realize just what an impact he had made on the community, and how dearly "Starfyre" was loved. I don't know, just throwing that out there...
but anyways, moving on.
Blade, I agree with your observation that the IC/OOC lines have beccome blurred. That's been a constant struggle! Some folks really are "U are U". Some aren't, for whatever reason. Some choose to play Uru as a game, and therefor use a character just as you would find in any story or drama. Others don't bother and just immerse themselves in the experience. Neither is right or wrong, I don't think, just different approaches.
So how do we handle that? Trust others less on the assumption that they may not be "them"? I don't think that's the answer. Just as in real life, you have to be careful when trusting people. When you meet a new person in surface life, it's the same way. You don't trust them implicitely right off - it takes time to develop that relationship. Usually, they turn out ok. Every once in awhile, though it doesn't, and people turn out different than we thought they were. That hurts. It sucks, but unfortunately it happens, and we just have to move on...
Prof, I see what yer saying. I hope it doesn't come down to the sort of cliquishness where it turns into one hood against another, cuz you can't trust anyone else...
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brian
Fearless Leader
Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 1372
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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I just wanted to say that I'm not a Character. I have always maintained that I always act the way I would if all of this were real (it is, to me, to some extent).
About trust? We in this group have to be especially aware of this. Trust will be important to us. It was *always* a huge deal with Sharper, and I understand why more now than I did then. However, I tend to trust people by default to a large degree...
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#Brian Fioca
#KI: 11882331
#KI: 1504111 [disconnected]
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Professor Askew
Great Tree Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2003
Posts: 2532
Location: Bloomfield, CT
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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"That's it! I'm sorry, Brian, we're going to have to let you go. Hello, Casting? Bring me another Fioca. Someone more....in your face! Got that?"
Hooraaaaay! For Beefioca!
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Professor Daniel Askew - Securing our reality from the machinations of the Station Masters. |
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CuzinJohn
Great Tree Member
Joined: 09 Feb 2004
Posts: 775
Location: Note to self - fix Avvie and Sig Graphics...
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ghaelen wrote: |
I'm glad to see this forum wasn't locked. I actually disagree with locking down the forums, and would advocate creating a space specifically for venting that would give angry community members 24 hours to vent with the understanding that it would not remain permanently. That would allow those who truely need to vent a place to do it, and maybe be less attractive to those who think their flaming posts will survive to be remembered. I see some anger here, and some pain, but I don't see flaming at all. I'm on another forum that was left open, and there isn't any flaming there either. Only pain and another difficult lesson being learned. |
I'm in agreement with this. A place to vent could have been useful. I headed into the 'hood last night and found a few folks to vent and rant with. It helped. Venting and ranting in situations like this can actually be helpful when done properly. By properly I mean open discussions expressing my anger/frustration/confusion/etc. and listening while others do similarly. Improper venting turns into flaming too easily.
Thanks to venting with others, I saw the situation from a few different perspectives and had an easier time getting over it... or at least moving past it.
Personally, I think the worst lapse in judgement was this guy putting his PayPal account out there. I don't care how many times you can say "We really prefer you not send anything" but when you put a mechanism for donations out there, you have to know you'd get SOMETHING, especially with all the sentiment that was outpouring. I hope everyone who was generous gets back what they gave.
In time, this will be a thing of the past. I hope Garrett finds himself strong enough to offer up his own apology someday. This could have been handled better, but owning up to what he did will lend heavily to the rest us forgiving, forgetting, and moving on.
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Science is how you talk about the universe with words that bind it to a common reality.
Magic is how you talk to the universe with words that it cannot ignore. |
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Sa'rUK
Veteran Explorer
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 73
Location: Independence, Missouri
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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HEE HEE
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Saruk
The Lowly Veteran Explorer???
MO:ULagain KI: |
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BladeLakem
Great Tree Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 514
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Rils wrote: | | Maybe he didn't realize just what an impact he had made on the community, and how dearly "Starfyre" was loved. I don't know, just throwing that out there... |
I think you may be on target there. Losing yourself in a character is often a result of a lack of self-esteem. And in that mindset, the concept that people might actually like you is near unthinkable.
| Rils wrote: | | So how do we handle that? Trust others less on the assumption that they may not be "them"? I don't think that's the answer. |
I agree with you here. I think generally that we as individuals and as a community just have to understand that the different might be there, and it's a question me might need to ask a person as we get to know somone.
| Professor Askew wrote: | | Hooraaaaay! For Beefioca! |
Beefioca? Is that like beefaroni?
| CuzinJohn wrote: | | A place to vent could have been useful. |
And I think that you found one. And those who needed it then found other places as well. The UO mods just decided that they didn't want the venting to happen on their board right away. And I think that might be a wise decision.
I would assert that venting in an online community works differently than in face-to-face. This is especially true in large and diverse communities such as UO. The tendency to move from venting to flaming is pretty high. We can discuss these things more candidly here, as this community is smaller, people here generally know each other better, have an understanding of the group dynamic and have some things in common. |
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ghaelen
Veteran Explorer
Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 75
Location: In the Ages
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Rils wrote: | | ghaelen wrote: | | However, I don't agree that using a tragedy is a good way to end a character's role unless it is clear that that character is a part of the Cyan story and not a part of the community. Too many people have lost loved ones in Real Live, and my concern is for them and the idea that their pain has been mocked, in a way. More than one person may now need some emotional counseling. Was it necessary to create that kind of situation. |
ooo, please don't think I am condoning what Garrett did! I did not mean that at all. I was merely pointing out that, though it was misdirected, I can appreciate his creativity in playing the role to the end.
I don't believe he intentionally meant to mock the pain of those who have lost loved ones to similar circumstances. I think it was just a bad idea that then got further out of hand. Maybe he didn't realize just what an impact he had made on the community, and how dearly "Starfyre" was loved. I don't know, just throwing that out there...
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No, I wasn't passing judgement on you, Rils. (Is that a real name, anyway?)  I was clarifying my own position on the way the character was withdrawn from the "story." Sorry if I came across as if you were condoning or not condoning Garret's actions. That wasn't on my mind at all.
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Rils
Great Tree Member
Joined: 28 Dec 2005
Posts: 815
Location: Screw Ballard, I live in Edmonds now
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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heh, no worries ghaelen! Just thought I'd clarify! 
| Blade wrote: | | Beefioca? Is that like beefaroni? |
no no, it's a dessert. Much like tapioca pudding, it's a creamy custard made with little chewy chunks of ground cow mixed in...
~Rils
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brian
Fearless Leader
Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 1372
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Rils wrote: | heh, no worries ghaelen! Just thought I'd clarify!
| Blade wrote: | | Beefioca? Is that like beefaroni? |
no no, it's a dessert. Much like tapioca pudding, it's a creamy custard made with little chewy chunks of ground cow mixed in...
~Rils |
omg it's like middle school all over again!
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#Brian Fioca
#KI: 11882331
#KI: 1504111 [disconnected]
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Daedalus
Overseer / Architect
Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Posts: 909
Location: Daedalus is currently exploring in the city age.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject: And to think my posts are usually brief... |
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Speaking of "characters..."
There are a quite few people on the forums who act a particular way in regards to cavern events because they are staying "in character," and not exactly reflecting their actual beliefs. This can be confusing when these arguments leave the game and continue into the forums and PMs. In a game like Uru which encourages role-playing as yourself, there is a certain level of expectation that people aren't purposefully clashing in personalities. There is no other game (that I have seen anyway) which expects itself to be an actual extension of your current life and experiences.
Cyan's tag line has always been "what would you do if you were really there?" I found this instrumental in solving each of their games, and I treat Uru no differently. Many people interpret this as "what would I want to do?" which can sometimes lead to the creation of a character persona. Doing neither is particularly right or wrong, but the act of purposefully hurting others is what cannot be tolerated by the community.
For myself at least, whether it's Daedalus or Dan, all I would ever want to be (in Duck'nee ) is myself. Uru is a very personal experience, and I wouldn't have it any other way if I wish to completely immerse myself.
(What will be interesting is when it comes time to make choices...) |
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Cycreim
Great Tree Officer
Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 1274
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Absolutely right. If it were up to me I'd recommend to everyone who's joining Uru now and in the future to play themselves and not invent a character. Most people who are used to the concept of roleplaying aren't used to the idea of playing as themselves, Uru is really the only game I've seen (though Uru isn't strictly a game) where they actually ENCOURAGE that.
I'm worried that this whole debacle will put another nail in the coffin of "being in-cavern".
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Professor Askew
Great Tree Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2003
Posts: 2532
Location: Bloomfield, CT
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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Unless, of course, one understands HOW to play a role without going to any bizarre extremes.
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Professor Daniel Askew - Securing our reality from the machinations of the Station Masters. |
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